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I don’t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist here, because there are plenty of better ones on the blogosphere. But I would like to name some events and facts over the last couple of years that suggest deeper problems in Pakistan than we are ready to deal with.

First – remember Raymond Davis? The American CIA agent who killed two Pakistanis in Lahore? Almost certainly those men were agents of or employed by the Pakistani ISI, roughly equivalent the the US CIA.

Davis was reportedly being intimidated because he was ‘crossing a line’. That intimidation ended bloodily, and the US went to great lengths to get him out of Pakistan.

Now we have wikileaks helpfully informing us that the ISI had been sabotaging efforts to find bin Laden for some time now, hence why they were being circumvented by people like Raymond Davis and why Pakistan was given no warning of the final raid on bin Laden’s compound.

What are the implications of this?

1. It makes me believe there was in fact a high-value target inside Pakistan who was killed on May 2. The tension between intelligence agencies makes it seem as though the CIA had finally had enough of the obfuscating;
2. It makes ISI involvement in the Mumbai terror attacks seem far more likely;
3. It means that Afghanistan and its people will not be safe from the Taliban until the ISI undergoes extreme change. That means the Pakistani government has to be serious about addressing it, and has to feel like it no longer is so threatened that it needs the ISI in its current form. That means that if we really want peace in Afghanistan and Pakistan, we need to address the situation between Pakistan and India.

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The Polish Wolf

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LK
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LK

As Kennedy said just before he was murdered, the CIA should be broken into a thousand pieces and disbanded! It is a sh*t, outta control organization. It is wagging the dog. And we need not be in that part of the world killing people. We’ve done that long enough now. ALL our problems in that region are self-created, and if you really want to look for culprits, look at big oil. Let’s leave, and then leave those people alone. History should be our guide. Intervention has worked SO well there, right?

LK
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LK

As Kennedy said just before he was murdered, the CIA should be broken into a thousand pieces and disbanded! It is a sh*t, outta control organization. It is wagging the dog. And we need not be in that part of the world killing people. We’ve done that long enough now. ALL our problems in that region are self-created, and if you really want to look for culprits, look at big oil. Let’s leave, and then leave those people alone. History should be our guide. Intervention has worked SO well there, right?

The Polish Wolf
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The Polish Wolf

Our first hostile engagement with the Muslim world was 141 years before the foundation of the state of Israel. India and Pakistan were at war the year before Israel was founded.. The ISI was formed in 1948 and almost certainly started supporting anti-Indian terrorism soon thereafter. All of these things happened before the US showed any significant intervention in South Asia. Wait, don’t tell me – sure, but the British were there and created all these problems. Oh, such a clever response! How could I have forgotten that prior to the British conquest of India, the two religions lived together… Read more »

LK
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LK

What a dufus. You see a lot of good from the CIA’s meddling in the region, do ya? Oh, and you’re such a history expert, EXPLAIN the Shah, Saddam, etc., and how this was in America’s best interest. You’re ridiculous. Oh, and then explain how great our two or three current wars are going. And while you’re at it, explain just HOW israel is our great ally. Sorry, dude, you’re a posuer, and it’s pathetically obvious.

The Polish Wolf
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The Polish Wolf

LK = dodge ball champion! You dodged, ducked, dipped, dived, and dodged around the question of how the US is responsible for the fact that Pakistna’ intelligence apparatus is and has been training and financing terrorism without permission form its civilian government. This involved the CIA, your favorite topic, only obliquely. When the US cannot rely on local intelligence agencies, for example because they are protecting terrorists, we generally use greater CIA involvement on the ground. Indeed, Larry, if you had actually felt the need to honestly respond to the post, you’d see that I don’t call for greater CIA… Read more »

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

Our first hostile engagement with the Muslim world was 141 years before the foundation of the state of Israel. India and Pakistan were at war the year before Israel was founded.. The ISI was formed in 1948 and almost certainly started supporting anti-Indian terrorism soon thereafter. All of these things happened before the US showed any significant intervention in South Asia. Wait, don’t tell me – sure, but the British were there and created all these problems. Oh, such a clever response! How could I have forgotten that prior to the British conquest of India, the two religions lived together… Read more »

LK
Guest
LK

What a dufus. You see a lot of good from the CIA’s meddling in the region, do ya? Oh, and you’re such a history expert, EXPLAIN the Shah, Saddam, etc., and how this was in America’s best interest. You’re ridiculous. Oh, and then explain how great our two or three current wars are going. And while you’re at it, explain just HOW israel is our great ally. Sorry, dude, you’re a posuer, and it’s pathetically obvious.

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

LK = dodge ball champion! You dodged, ducked, dipped, dived, and dodged around the question of how the US is responsible for the fact that Pakistna’ intelligence apparatus is and has been training and financing terrorism without permission form its civilian government. This involved the CIA, your favorite topic, only obliquely. When the US cannot rely on local intelligence agencies, for example because they are protecting terrorists, we generally use greater CIA involvement on the ground. Indeed, Larry, if you had actually felt the need to honestly respond to the post, you’d see that I don’t call for greater CIA… Read more »

larry kurtz
Guest

This blogger confesses to cases that support the .308 Solution (North Korea, Myanmar, etc); but only in concert with the United Nations Security Council. The precedents in US history abound. Google the Dahlgren Affair. So, PW, how many times IS the CIA allowed to get it wrong before it gets one right?

larry kurtz
Guest

This blogger confesses to cases that support the .308 Solution (North Korea, Myanmar, etc); but only in concert with the United Nations Security Council. The precedents in US history abound. Google the Dahlgren Affair. So, PW, how many times IS the CIA allowed to get it wrong before it gets one right?

lizard
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lizard

Pakistan should close off our supply lines through the Khyber pass, and we should cut off the taxpayer money spigot. the golden goose is dead. the game has changed.

lizard
Guest
lizard

Pakistan should close off our supply lines through the Khyber pass, and we should cut off the taxpayer money spigot. the golden goose is dead. the game has changed.

The Polish Wolf
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The Polish Wolf

Interesting proposal, lizard. My fear is that the ISI also has an internal objective, which is to continue isolating their own government. They continue to sabotage efforts to cooperate with India or Afghanistan. Pakistan’s apparent tolerance of violence against Shia Muslims makes a better relationship with Iran seem unlikely, and all the sudden they are running out of neighbors. And then what do you have? The Af-Pak theatre becomes a real region-wide theatre, where secularists and Islamists fight it out and 200+ million people (and some nuclear weapons) await the result. It’d sure save us some money.

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

Interesting proposal, lizard. My fear is that the ISI also has an internal objective, which is to continue isolating their own government. They continue to sabotage efforts to cooperate with India or Afghanistan. Pakistan’s apparent tolerance of violence against Shia Muslims makes a better relationship with Iran seem unlikely, and all the sudden they are running out of neighbors. And then what do you have? The Af-Pak theatre becomes a real region-wide theatre, where secularists and Islamists fight it out and 200+ million people (and some nuclear weapons) await the result. It’d sure save us some money.

lizard
Guest
lizard

it’s already a region-wide theatre, and it’s heating up. the ISI is merely filling the partial vacuum left by a weak government that is weak largely due to our “influence” in the region.

anyway, i’m more afraid of Israel. hamas’ deal with fatah is going to make Israel even crazier. and remember, those zionists don’t blink when executing an American citizen in international waters, or killing a young American woman with a bulldozer.

lizard
Guest
lizard

it’s already a region-wide theatre, and it’s heating up. the ISI is merely filling the partial vacuum left by a weak government that is weak largely due to our “influence” in the region.

anyway, i’m more afraid of Israel. hamas’ deal with fatah is going to make Israel even crazier. and remember, those zionists don’t blink when executing an American citizen in international waters, or killing a young American woman with a bulldozer.

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

I find that interesting, lizard. That you’re more afraid of Israel. I guess I’m not, because Israel is an isolated country. The religious divide between them and their neighbors is too high for them to gain any real subversive allies in the region. Historically they have been able to win over the Christians in Lebanon, but that’s about it. The ISI has what, two hundred million Muslims in India they are trying to appeal to when they recruit terrorists? Not to mention extremists in Afghanistan and throughout Central Asia. Their potential for destruction has already been demonstrated. Israel may kill… Read more »

lizard
Guest
lizard

if you don’t see how our relationship with Israel negatively affects our presence in the region, then that’s a big blindspot. even some of our high ranking military officials and f-ing Joe Biden have acknowledged that. then there’s that whole slaughtering of over a thousand people in Cast Lead and gunning down peaceful activists trying to break the inhumane blockade. collective punishment of Palestinians is deplorable. it makes Israel an apartheid state, and because their brand of existential paranoia, Israel’s leadership and most of its citizens perceives everything through the lens of their own impending annihilation. i’m not the only… Read more »

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

Lizard, I never said our relationship with Israel doesn’t negatively affect our policy in the region. I don’t know why you continue to believe I said that. But Israel’s existence and it’s ‘existential paranoia’ (perhaps fueled at least a little by rhetoric threatening the existence of Israel that continues to come out of the Muslim world) are facts we have to deal with. Is this the part where you go on again about Sadat betraying the Palestinians? For both sides at this point, belligerence is serving as an excuse for mediocre (at best) leadership. Should we try to encourage Israel… Read more »

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

I find that interesting, lizard. That you’re more afraid of Israel. I guess I’m not, because Israel is an isolated country. The religious divide between them and their neighbors is too high for them to gain any real subversive allies in the region. Historically they have been able to win over the Christians in Lebanon, but that’s about it. The ISI has what, two hundred million Muslims in India they are trying to appeal to when they recruit terrorists? Not to mention extremists in Afghanistan and throughout Central Asia. Their potential for destruction has already been demonstrated. Israel may kill… Read more »

lizard
Guest
lizard

if you don’t see how our relationship with Israel negatively affects our presence in the region, then that’s a big blindspot. even some of our high ranking military officials and f-ing Joe Biden have acknowledged that. then there’s that whole slaughtering of over a thousand people in Cast Lead and gunning down peaceful activists trying to break the inhumane blockade. collective punishment of Palestinians is deplorable. it makes Israel an apartheid state, and because their brand of existential paranoia, Israel’s leadership and most of its citizens perceives everything through the lens of their own impending annihilation. i’m not the only… Read more »

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

Lizard, I never said our relationship with Israel doesn’t negatively affect our policy in the region. I don’t know why you continue to believe I said that. But Israel’s existence and it’s ‘existential paranoia’ (perhaps fueled at least a little by rhetoric threatening the existence of Israel that continues to come out of the Muslim world) are facts we have to deal with. Is this the part where you go on again about Sadat betraying the Palestinians? For both sides at this point, belligerence is serving as an excuse for mediocre (at best) leadership. Should we try to encourage Israel… Read more »

larry kurtz
Guest

Distraction from northern Mexico, fellers. Back to the future:

larry kurtz
Guest

Distraction from northern Mexico, fellers. Back to the future:

larry kurtz
Guest
lizard
Guest
lizard

wolf, i’m putting this down here because it’s a long response. so the amount of people equates to how scary they are? i guess that makes China the scariest of all.Israel has AIPAC, and deep influence over too many of our politicians (see the treasonous behavior of one Jane Harman as just one example)and read this piece by Christopher Ketcham. Israel’s spying on the U.S., however, is a matter of public record, and neither conspiracy nor theory is needed to present the evidence. When the FBI produces its annual report to Congress concerning “Foreign Economic Collection and Industrial Espionage,” Israel… Read more »

lizard
Guest
lizard

wolf, i’m putting this down here because it’s a long response. so the amount of people equates to how scary they are? i guess that makes China the scariest of all.Israel has AIPAC, and deep influence over too many of our politicians (see the treasonous behavior of one Jane Harman as just one example)and read this piece by Christopher Ketcham. Israel’s spying on the U.S., however, is a matter of public record, and neither conspiracy nor theory is needed to present the evidence. When the FBI produces its annual report to Congress concerning “Foreign Economic Collection and Industrial Espionage,” Israel… Read more »

lizard
Guest
lizard

crap, sorry for the formatting. i couldn’t scroll up to check my cut&paste

lizard
Guest
lizard

crap, sorry for the formatting. i couldn’t scroll up to check my cut&paste

lizard
Guest
lizard

*** i’m going to try and post this comment again with line breaks. i hope the links transfer ok. so the amount of people equates to how scary they are? i guess that makes China the scariest of all.Israel has AIPAC, and deep influence over too many of our politicians (see the treasonous behavior of one Jane Harman as just one example)and read this piece by Christopher Ketcham. Israel’s spying on the U.S., however, is a matter of public record, and neither conspiracy nor theory is needed to present the evidence. When the FBI produces its annual report to Congress… Read more »

lizard
Guest
lizard

*** i’m going to try and post this comment again with line breaks. i hope the links transfer ok. so the amount of people equates to how scary they are? i guess that makes China the scariest of all.Israel has AIPAC, and deep influence over too many of our politicians (see the treasonous behavior of one Jane Harman as just one example)and read this piece by Christopher Ketcham. Israel’s spying on the U.S., however, is a matter of public record, and neither conspiracy nor theory is needed to present the evidence. When the FBI produces its annual report to Congress… Read more »

lizard
Guest
lizard

i give up. there’s a quote in there after the Ketcham article that i tried to blockquote, and the line breaks disappeared again. sorry.

lizard
Guest
lizard

i give up. there’s a quote in there after the Ketcham article that i tried to blockquote, and the line breaks disappeared again. sorry.

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

lizard – if you are an individual living in Gaza, I suppose Israel is more frightening. But the ISI has the potential to destabilize a much larger region. The difference between Mossad and the CIA on one hand and Mossad on the other is that Mossad adn the CIA are currently operating more or less in the interest of their national governments. The ISI is working completely at cross purposes to their national government, and while Mossad and the CIA generally work for stability (even when it means repressing the legitimate will of the people), the ISI needs, to justify… Read more »

LK
Guest
LK

The CIA is working in “our national interest”? What a dufus. Explain that one, dufus. How you know? Everything they do is secret! We don’t even know their budget! And now, they are instigating military actions! Only a moron believes that the CIA works in our country’s best interest. Please prove that assertion with some facts. And then, explain what their budget is and what the public oversight is of their actions.

LK
Guest
LK

The CIA is working in “our national interest”? What a dufus. Explain that one, dufus. How you know? Everything they do is secret! We don’t even know their budget! And now, they are instigating military actions! Only a moron believes that the CIA works in our country’s best interest. Please prove that assertion with some facts. And then, explain what their budget is and what the public oversight is of their actions.

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

lizard – if you are an individual living in Gaza, I suppose Israel is more frightening. But the ISI has the potential to destabilize a much larger region. The difference between Mossad and the CIA on one hand and Mossad on the other is that Mossad adn the CIA are currently operating more or less in the interest of their national governments. The ISI is working completely at cross purposes to their national government, and while Mossad and the CIA generally work for stability (even when it means repressing the legitimate will of the people), the ISI needs, to justify… Read more »

LK
Guest
LK

The CIA is working in “our national interest”? What a dufus. Explain that one, dufus. How you know? Everything they do is secret! We don’t even know their budget! And now, they are instigating military actions! Only a moron believes that the CIA works in our country’s best interest. Please prove that assertion with some facts. And then, explain what their budget is and what the public oversight is of their actions.

lizard
Guest
lizard

the CIA works for instability as well, when it serves a purpose, like regime change.

and i’d be interested to see some sources backing up this idea that the ISI is “working completely at cross purposes to their national government.” i don’t disbelieve it, i’d just like to see someone other than yourself argue the point.

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

The Pakistani government does things like this –

http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/311813/pakistan-and-india-hold-peace-talks

While the ISI is doing this

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-04-12/us/29409412_1_rana-and-headley-isi-tahawwur-hussain-rana

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/isis-terror-links-will-be-made-public-during-26-11-trial-in-us-court-report/787829/

Cross purposes. And yes, the CIA can work to destabilize a country or region, but the goal is at least always some furtherance of US goals, not in spite of US goals.

lizard
Guest
lizard

thank you, wolf. those are some interesting reads.

lizard
Guest
lizard

the CIA works for instability as well, when it serves a purpose, like regime change.

and i’d be interested to see some sources backing up this idea that the ISI is “working completely at cross purposes to their national government.” i don’t disbelieve it, i’d just like to see someone other than yourself argue the point.

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

The Pakistani government does things like this –

http://www.mb.com.ph/articles/311813/pakistan-and-india-hold-peace-talks

While the ISI is doing this

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-04-12/us/29409412_1_rana-and-headley-isi-tahawwur-hussain-rana

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/isis-terror-links-will-be-made-public-during-26-11-trial-in-us-court-report/787829/

Cross purposes. And yes, the CIA can work to destabilize a country or region, but the goal is at least always some furtherance of US goals, not in spite of US goals.

lizard
Guest
lizard

thank you, wolf. those are some interesting reads.

larry kurtz
Guest

Hi guys! How’s it going in here? http://americasmexico.blogspot.com/2011/05/mexicoblog-editorial-mexicos-march.html

Ready to help me draft that referendum yet?

larry kurtz
Guest

Hi guys! How’s it going in here? http://americasmexico.blogspot.com/2011/05/mexicoblog-editorial-mexicos-march.html

Ready to help me draft that referendum yet?

Mrk Tokarski
Guest
Mrk Tokarski

.Perhaps Afghan would rather be safe from Americans than Taliban? Has anyone thought to ask them? We seem to spend a lot of time saving people who fear us and suffer more from our bombs than the evils we are supposedly there to help them avoid. makes me think that foreign policy as presented to the American public is one big lie

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

Someone did ask.

http://asiafoundation.org/news/2010/11/asia-foundation-releases-2010-afghan-public-opinion-poll/

“suffer more from our bombs than the evils we are supposedly there to help them avoid.”

All statistical analysis suggest that far more Afghans and Iraqis are killed by insurgents in their countries than by the US or government forces. So, per usual, you repeat your mantras but they are without substance.

Mrk Tokarski
Guest
Mrk Tokarski

.Perhaps Afghan would rather be safe from Americans than Taliban? Has anyone thought to ask them? We seem to spend a lot of time saving people who fear us and suffer more from our bombs than the evils we are supposedly there to help them avoid. makes me think that foreign policy as presented to the American public is one big lie

The Polish Wolf
Guest
The Polish Wolf

Someone did ask.

http://asiafoundation.org/news/2010/11/asia-foundation-releases-2010-afghan-public-opinion-poll/

“suffer more from our bombs than the evils we are supposedly there to help them avoid.”

All statistical analysis suggest that far more Afghans and Iraqis are killed by insurgents in their countries than by the US or government forces. So, per usual, you repeat your mantras but they are without substance.

Rider I
Guest

In reality the accounts of this are normal wear and tear on areas. In Pakistan the CCP and MSS are working very hard to harness the area’s terrorists for their own consumption able use of economic warfare. This is because the more they attack India and the US the more the CCP and MSS can expand. So instead of everybody going in together like a peaceful world. We see the only country not wanting to deal with terrorist camps in Communist China. As India, Russia, The US, France and everybody else is willing to place troops on the ground to stop these actors. However, the CCP… Read more »

Bernardine Ibric
Guest

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Wodzirej
Guest

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